Okay, so that threw me for a huge loop. Did anyone follow the logic at the end of last night’s episode of In Plain Sight?
Rafe’s (Cristián de la Fuente) mom is in town for his and Mary’s engagement party. Already a little strange, but, fine. Time for a game of pretend this is happening, so as not to disturb the mother steeped in traditions, and what not. Check. Mary can’t go through with it, tells the truth, and she and Rafe have a showdown. Got it.
Now, here’s where the episode doubled down on things: Rafe and Mary finally (finally!) realize that they’re not on the same page. That something’s wrong with their line of communication. In fact, Rafe’s spent the last nine months seriously contemplating retirement from professional baseball, a move he made real the day before. Clearly, there’s a disconnect in your relationship if you could physically make that kind of HUGE, life-altering decision without your partner in life. So, what does Mary do?
She accepts his marriage proposal. Picture the CliqueClack logo, with its tongue lolled out the side of its mouth, jaw wipe open. What the hell was she thinking?
There are two categories to these type of things: one, is the big surprise that keeps you guessing until the end, because it’s unexpected, but it works. The other keeps you guessing, because it actually makes no sense with anything else that’s come before it. It’s like if I started counting, “1, 2, 3, 5, 8.” It would take you a second, but you’d get the sequence.
However, if I instead counted, “1, 2, 3, 4, helium-balloon”, you might feel as discombobulated as I did when Mary dug the engagement ring out of Rafe’s pocket. It didn’t surprise me because it’s the road less traveled; it surprised me because there’s no road in existence, or even the potential for one to be built. It’s just dumb, and a continuation of the train-wreck that is the show’s utilization of Mary’s personal life to round-out her character. Leave it alone already!
The episode itself didn’t impress too much, particularly since it was all meant to be a life-lesson for Mary, but at least they’ve stuck with the larger witness focus, something I think was detrimentally lacking in the beginning of the season. Like I said last week, not all of them are going to be interesting, but the witnesses should at least play a role on the show.
What I do feel the need to mention is how much leeway the federal government seems to give witnesses, at least as far as In Plain Sight goes. I’d have thought that any number of things that were going on with the Moreno/Morales family should have gotten them bounced from the program, or at least moved. Mary and Marshall were talking to Olivia’s (Francia Raisa) friend as if he knew exactly who they, and she, were. Olivia’s contact with someone from her old life should have gotten her cut out immediately. Jesus’ (Carlos Gomez, also Nancy’s Mexican gynecologist on Weeds) chasing Olivia to Los Angeles should have gotten him thrown in jail: he’s a criminal!
I realize that the system’s designed to catch the big fish, but the little fish are just as guilty. There’s only so much rope they should be provided with. Plus, how many opportunities does the US Attorney’s office give federal witnesses to testify truthfully before throwing them in prison for perjury, crimes committed, or whatever else they can think of?
And I’m talking in terms of motivation, like sending someone to jail for contempt when they won’t name their source, or whatever. I realize the US Attorney’s office is worried about the big picture, but again; how much leeway do you give a criminal? And, one who’s getting a pass by your office, at that? This might be all for TV’s sake, but I wonder.
Anyway, the engagement mess will certainly be dealt with in the coming weeks. My guess is Mary keeps the facade going long enough to really break Rafe’s heart, and then she has cry-fest number two with momma and little sis, before getting back on the “find poppa” train.
Mary’s great … her family? Spare me.
Clacked by Aryeh S.
on Jul 13, 2009 @ 15:00 EST5EDT
I agree, the marriage acceptance felt completely out of whack to me (excuse the technical term), especially when it followed Mary saying that the two of them weren’t on the same page. All Mary learned from Rafe was that the proposal was not a spur-of-the-moment decision. Great, but how does that affect the way she feels about him?
But I’m not so sure about how great Mary is anymore. I was already frustrated with Mary at the beginning of the episode. She was pretty disgusting to Rafe about his weight gain. While clearly a means to introduce us to the idea that Rafe may no longer be in training, she was still rude. And not her words, but her tone. Mary is blunt, assertive, independent, and self-centered, but not usually mean-spirited. While I enjoy the interplay between Mary and the other (non-familial) characters, such as Marshall (who is awesome) and Eleanor, I’m not loving her so much anymore. Oh well.
*POST AUTHOR*
Point taken. I probably should have qualified “Mary’s great … her family? Spare me.” with:
“Take away any and all aspect of her family and personal life (so, dump Jinx, Brandi, and Rafe from the show), and Mary’s great. Work Mary. Real Mary. Season one Mary. Righto Ray.”
Like I say every time, I think each episode gets better and better. I already enjoyed S2 over S1, but each ep keeps getting tighter. I think I especially enjoyed this episode as Jinx and Brandi were in the background. Also, they’re doing a good job of using Jinx as a mother figure. I also enjoyed this ep over last week as Brandi’s story works best when intertwined with Mary’s. When she’s off on her own, I care less about her.
I knew the show would have to return to Rafe’s proposal. I think Mary and Rafe are great together as a couple, but as far as marriage, I don’t think he understands her enough while she realizes that they don’t work long term. Plus, before she can truly contemplate a full relationship, she has to get over her daddy issues. I love CR in the role as he’s hella hot, but I’m hoping they transition him over to Mary’s level headed friend outside work. They’ve definitely gone a long way to showing growth in the Mary character. Last year, she was so fragile, despite her external irritation and keeping Rafe at arm’s length, any disruption in their relationship probably would’ve hurt her more than him. However, this time around, as they’re showing Mary with more awareness than Rafe, he probably might hurt more if they break up (by investing more in the relationship), but while he’s a great support to Mary, he doesn’t truly see their shortcomings as a couple. He’s more intent on getting married without realizing his girlfriend clearly isn’t ready for that family-wise and mentally.
I didn’t think Mary was mean to Rafe. I think she just jibed his sudden change in eating habits, especially for an athlete. Don’t you snark on your friends every now again? Also, if you think about it, all of Mary’s witnesses break protocol and should’ve been bounced. The continuous point is that Mary goes out of her way to care about her witnesses. S2 gets better and better, keep up the good work, writers/producers/directors.
*POST AUTHOR*
I find it difficult to accept that simply drying out would make Jinx a better mother. She’s an irresponsible, flighty type of person; it’s hard to imagine two daughters who had to live their entire childhoods with this train wreck of a parent really embracing her now just because she’s finally dealt with her addiction. There’s a culmination to that chapter which has never been broached, and I imagine it’s large enough that, no matter how long the show runs for, it would still not be concluded by the finale. I think the writers just took the easy way out on that one.
I wouldn’t say that Brandi’s story was intertwined with Mary’s if she was little more than scenery in this episode. I’d say I prefer her this way, but, what storyline?
What kind of relationship can two adults like Mary and Rafe sustain if one of them is constantly of the mindset that they can never make it for the long haul? They should be friends, as you suggest, but that’s unlikely to happen after Mary inevitably breaks his heart.
I think Abigail has a point, in that the way Mary made the weight remark to Rafe was cruel. You can spin her intent anyway that you want to, but it definitely doesn’t connect with the end of the episode, when she accepts his marriage proposal. She did not sound as if she was merely poking fun at him, which is part of her problem.
Mary’s witnesses do regularly break protocol, so my question is really on a broader scale. I used this episode’s incidents as but an example, in order to question just how ridiculously far all of their actions skew from what would be acceptable in the WITSEC program. The fact that Mary cares for them (and I think that she gets herself too involved in their lives) doesn’t change the fact that many of them should have been bounced or relocated, and her handle on the witnesses assigned to her should really be called into question. There has to be some authenticity in a show like this, no?
Well, the logic is that what kept her from accepting his marriage proposal was the misconception (as Mary stated) that he got called up to the majors, then ran out and bought a ring to try to keep her on the hook while he was out of town. Unspoken was the logical conclusion that if it didn’t work, a quickie divorce was no big deal to Rafe. And as we learned in this episode, Mary’s a romantic who takes the whole proposal, marriage, promise, tradition and perseverance thing very seriously. Her learning that he was on the same page as her about all the important things was enough for her to yank the ring right out of his pocket, because of course she knew he would carry it with him wherever he went.
If that didn’t work for you for these characters, then it didn’t work, and there’s little point in trying to convince you otherwise.
As for the baseball thing, all professional athletes know there’s a time limit on their careers, and Rafe’s not even making a large amount of money in the lower tiers. Retirement’s a huge change for Rafe, but one they both knew he would have to make eventually and one which doesn’t really affect Mary’s life, so I can understand why he didn’t tell her before he finally did it. Some couples discuss every aspect of their lives together and some don’t, but even the latter often can celebrate 50th wedding anniversaries.
Now for the Morenos, you’re assuming things did or did not happen that we never got the chance to see on screen. If you always think the worst of everything that’s not explicitly spelled out for the audience, I’m afraid you’re not going to find very many shows to enjoy.
Olivia or Mary and Marshal had to have given some sort of cover story to Eric after their first meeting as to why Olivia only needs to make a five-second phone call for two plainclothes cops to bust down her door, guns drawn. While interviewing Eric later, all we know is that Mary identifies them as U.S. Marshalls and Marshal intimates that they believe Olivia was kidnapped and that her life is in danger. No one makes any mention of Witness Protection, and Marshalls have a lot of other government duties. Also, he’s their only remaining shot at finding her, so if he manages to figure out the truth from their questioning, they can worry about the question of relocating her if and when they recover her alive. That’s exactly how Mary operates, anyway.
If Olivia had left the hotel room with her father, the question of her disposition could have been raised later. They most likely would have been relocated together even after her security breach, as Jesus would refuse to testify if they kept him in the program and kicked his daughter out. But since she chose to stay with her boyfriend instead, she did leave the program voluntarily. Mary even warns her that once Jesus walks out the door without her, he will be given a new identity and she will never see him again.
Stan only discovers Jesus is in the wind when he goes to check up on him because he’s not answering his cell phone. The instant he warns his Marshalls, they find him again. The very next scene after that is Jesus walking with them in a Miami Federal Courthouse, so it’s not a stretch to assume that he was in their custody the entire time. There was no time to throw him in jail before his testimony, and I have no trouble believing the U.S. Attorney would give him a free pass if he put Calderon away. Federal employees are still human, and Jesus wasn’t trying to renege on his deal; he was trying to save his daughter’s life and damn the consequences.
I don’t think it’s so much a question of government leeway as it is a lack of manpower and funds. I’m sure they’d love to have a permanent team watching every witness family 24/7, but it can’t work that way on TV or in real life. When a witness acts out, runs or commits a crime, no Marshall can be there ahead of time to stop them, and their later punishment is decided by the Marshall’s superiors. Why would Mary’s handling of them be called into question when: 1) in most cases the witness’s transgression has nothing to do with the Marshall assigned to them and 2) Mary’s probably better than most of her peers at wrangling a witness into a happy ending when they do act out? It’s also reasonable to assume that most of Mary’s witnesses don’t cause trouble and therefore never appear in an episode. It’s kind of like blaming Captain Kirk for causing all these interstellar problems and saying he must have a horrible Starfleet record because things go wrong every episode and he’s always nearby when they do.
You do realize that both of Jesus’s testimonies occurred on the same day, within at most a few hours, right? Do you really think a U.S. Attorney that had spent the last 18 months building his case against Calderon would throw away his main witness the first time he balked, or would he give the Marshalls a chance to try to change the witness’s mind? Both Mary and Jesus stated that he knew he would go to prison for this, so we didn’t need to see an actual threat. I don’t see how you can call the prosecutor lenient when the stakes are this high plus we never see him display any weakness in the matter, only scrambling to salvage the situation in front of the judge.
As to Abigail’s comment, friendship, sarcasm and insults are a complicated matter that depends on the people involved. I have no problem believing Mary and Rafe are both thick-skinned enough to be this vicious with one another. It doesn’t sound friendly to you, but there’s no need for people like me to “spin” her intent, because your personal interpretation does not constitute unimpeachable truth.
Now, since we always dwell on the negatives for this show, I’m really starting to cherish how awful Mary and Eleanor are to each other as they’re growing more “friendly.” And how everyone loved the marinating goat. And Marshal’s moronic Adam & Eve parable.
*POST AUTHOR*
Wow. I had to rearrange my day to respond to this. I do appreciate that you’re so interested in what I have to say. Thanks.
So, first of all, I will make mention of the fact that I’m aware of my audience for these pieces. Not to say that I’m looking to be an instigator, but rather, to explore avenues of the episode in my posts that I know we can have an in-depth discussion about.
I get the disconnect between Mary and Rafe when he first proposed, but that also means that she knows nothing about him in the first place. Besides not being the type of guy to want to just lock her down, she also should know that he was up to marriage in their relationship. It’s kind of illogical to imagine that she didn’t realize any of that.
I also think it’s total crap that Mary’s suddenly a whimsical romantic. Where does that mesh with everything else we know about her?
I don’t think it’s a matter of not working for me. Rather, it doesn’t work for the characters themselves. We’ve known them for 20+ episodes. Where’s Mary’s romantic side? For that matter, where’s her belief in marriage? Where’s her thinking that Rafe wasn’t in a commitment zone yet? Please.
While I’m sure you’re right about the whole couples not sharing things, this isn’t just some job that he quit. Baseball is his life, and has been forever. Her not being included in the conscious struggle he was having means she’s not an integral part of his life. I’m sorry, but it’s just not possible that someone would keep something like THAT to themselves. It’s like contemplating running for president for a year, forming an exploratory committee, but not telling your spouse about it. That couple would NOT be celebrating their 50th. Also, it should affect Mary’s life, because it’s such a major part of his. Even if it doesn’t mean she’d practically feel it, that doesn’t mean there’s no impact. I think you’re compartmentalizing them way too much.
Granted I’m making assumptions about the Morenos, although I don’t think it’s thinking the worst of them, just connecting the dots. I’ve always questioned the secrecy that Mary and Marshall employ, while still identifying themselves as US Marshalls. Yes, there’re other jobs in the service, but what comes to mind when you hear someone works there? Or, the Secret Service (which also has multiple tracks)? Or, the CIA? They’re smart enough to realize that if they’re going to shroud themselves in secrecy, they need to see that through. Had they identified themselves as police both when they entered the apartment, and when they were questioning Eric about Olivia’s whereabouts, would it have caused him to react to them any differently?
I realize the Jesus in the hotel room thing was of an unusual nature, but how could they let him into the room when the son of the guy he was testifying against was there? And, yeah, they found him right away, but had they not found Olivia first, that wouldn’t have been the case, so it’s not really a “no harm, no foul” situation.
There’s compassion and understanding, and then there are things that fall outside the realm of what a federal employee, or anyone else in that position, should be expected to do, or just SHOULD do. Why should it matter that Jesus was trying to save his daughter? The federal government was giving this criminal a pass on a lot of stuff already; I think the “who owes who” is being a little confused.
I know that’s why we have a TV show, but Mary’s witnesses seem to do a lot of transgressing, which should get them moved. Yes, they’re not playing it that way on the show, but if they were, and all of her witnesses needed to be relocated, don’t you think it would call her competency into question?
Who is this Captain Kirk of which you speak?
Yes, I know that Jesus’ testimonies were all on one day, but when the US Attorney asked for a recess the second time? He should have asked that the witness be placed in jail on charges of contempt, or perjury, or obstruction of justice, in order to help “jog” his memory. Not being jailed is leeway that he shouldn’t have gotten. It’s not throwing anything away; rather, it shows the witness that you mean business, just in case they thought they could suck on the government’s teat without giving anything back.
The comment that bothered Abigail so much is more a continuation of the same than a stand-alone ribbing by Mary. She’s always been on the wrong side of the kidding/cruel line with Rafe, and I think that the fat comment stands out, because she accepted his marriage proposal in the same episode. Not “unimpeachable truth” (ouch), but definitely a valid interpretation if you’ve been watching the show since the beginning. She’s cruel, and mistreats him.
Hey, no negativity here; just chatting. I actually can’t stand Mary and Eleanor ;-), and I thought the goat thing was a bit tired (see “Perfect Strangers” circa 1986), but I liked Marshall’s parable; he’s deep. See, no negativity!
You didn’t have to take that much trouble in your response, as I’m only arguing over a question of viewpoint, not facts this time. But as long as your post’s not an unmitigated rant, I’m happy to read and comment.
Mary and Rafe have always had a communication problem to some degree or another, and still neither one, not even Mary has been able to completely scuttle their relationship. It’s one that, as An says, doesn’t work on paper, so you can call it weak writing and I can’t fault you for that. But since I realize couples like that do continue to function in the real world, it’s not enough to blow my personal suspension of disbelief.
Again, the impression I get is that you think this particular couple should be one of those that share everything they’re thinking, while I’ve never seen them that way.
Mary’s not a romantic, she’s a Romantic, and there’s nothing whimsical about her. She’s not pining after her best friend, or chasing the mystery man after the masked ball, but she does have a deep and abiding reverence for marriage, commitments and even family. She talks tough but her mother and sister know they can freeload off her into perpetuity, and she’ll never really cut them out of her life). It’s the inevitable result of her childhood issues, and the reason why she’s Little Miss Perfect to them and so dedicated and empathetic to her witnesses. For Mary, marriage is a bigger thing than just adding a license to their shacking up.
“I don’t think it’s a matter of not working for me. Rather, it doesn’t work for the characters themselves.”
That’s the “truth” bit I was talking about. I take no umbrage at your criticisms of the show and its characters, but you write in these declarative terms as if you don’t even consider other interpretations and explanations, which is the only reason I feel compelled to offer such for comparison. Sometimes you even seem determined to dislike the show you’re watching, unless that’s just an editorial decision.
Actually, I don’t think it is I that compartmentalizes Mary and Rafe. I’ve always felt that they do that to themselves from the pilot. We’ve seen in several episodes that they’re often two ships that pass in the night, barely connected by voice mail. She can’t share anything from her work with him, and he seems to be accepting of that. As for his baseball, he might be one of those men that doesn’t involve others in his decision-making process. That doesn’t mean that their families are less integral to those men or that their love for their wives and children are less, just that they’re different from the husbands to which you’re comparing Rafe.
The baseball retirement doesn’t affect Mary’s life because they’re not a couple that’s intertwined in all aspects. It does affect Mary herself, but only insofar as Rafe is dealing emotionally with the change. Likewise, changes in Mary’s life don’t really affect Rafe beyond what they do to Mary. Obviously, things will be different to some extent when they are married, and they both take that very seriously, but are still willing to move forward. That’s why I felt the kitchen scene was the biggest step we’ve seen so far in their relationship.
The U.S. Marshal Service is a large organization. When I hear someone works there, usually I think they’re tracking a fugitive or transporting a federal prisoner, just like I’ve seen on movies and television for many years. There just haven’t been as many Witness Protection shows, so that wouldn’t be my first guess. It’s as large a leap as assuming an FBI agent must be working on a kidnapping or serial killer case because that’s mainly what they do on CBS.
Also there’s the questions of legality and liability in identifying themselves as agents of a different government agency than their actual affiliation, which would probably involve a lot of turf wars, oversight and accountability problems and politicking. And whenever they need to present credentials to civilians, all they have are their Marshal badges, so pretending to be local or state police would be problematic at best.
I was saying that the Calderon case was apparently a very big win for the government. You might not have given Jesus a pass afterward, but I have no doubt that there are Federal attorneys and agents that would. There’s no “who owes who” involved. It would be a big deal if Calderon walked, but since he didn’t I don’t see anyone bothering to fill out the paperwork against Jesus.
In actuality the only thing I can find he did wrong was leaving the state without informing his controller. Since he didn’t miss his court appearance, and no manhunt was called up, it might not be a matter for the U.S. Attorney to address, just the Marshal Service, possibly falling all the way down to Stan’s desk.
Mary had to let him in the hotel room. In fact, she insisted he get out of the hallway right away, in case one of Calderon’s men came around the corner and started shooting. You can blame Jesus, but the authorities can’t punish him for what might have happened if the Marshals hadn’t found him right away, only what did actually happen.
Mary’s competency would only be called into question if it happened a lot more than with other WITSEC inspectors. Since witnesses often go off without her even being involved, I doubt her percentages are much different than any other (Marshall couldn’t even bring his last witness in alive). I do think she has more success in bringing them back because of her insane dedication to and emotional involvement in her work, so I don’t think she has to worry about her performance reviews.
Captain Kirk was this guy in a space ship that often did crazy, emotional things, but he also got results. In fact, he’s the only captain out of thirteen to bring his Constitution-class back to Earth in one piece after his five-year mission, so he looks pretty good by comparison.
Um, you use strong-arm tactics to try to coerce a hostile witness into testifying (in the news, usually a journalist protecting their source), not a friendly one you’ve presented to the court and around whom you’ve built your entire case.
“Shows the witness you mean business?” This isn’t playground bullying, it’s a delicate balancing act in which the prosecutor is attempting to change Jesus’s mind without having the judge throw the case out, for which the defense was quick to petition. Throwing Jesus in jail would have removed all doubt from the situation, and the U.S. Attorney was probably smart enough to know that such a threat wouldn’t have changed the stubborn witness’s mind anyway.
You’re probably right about the legalities of the situation, and what the USA could have done, but strictly enforcing all available penalties would not have gotten him anywhere near the only thing that was important, which was the conviction of the defendant, not teaching this witness a lesson. In fact, it would have had the opposite effect.
Your interpretation is completely valid; I just happen to have a different one but don’t begrudge yours. The weight comment is actually the closest thing I’ve seen to Mary’s insults being bantering rather than scornful, as she was in a pretty good mood in that scene. Just another thing regarding this show on which we remain diametrically opposed.
My problem was once again your wording of your point. You don’t always have to say “I think,” “I feel” or “IMHO” when making a statement, in this case that Mary was cruel, as that is understood. However, you present it as plainly evident truth rather than personal opinion when you follow it with your next statement, “you can spin her intent anyway that you want to, but…” which implies that said truth can only be countervailed by the application of some spurious logic or misdirection, and that even should someone do so their point is made moot in the end. You may not have intended to be so dismissive, but that is the way I read English.
Perhaps I merely am unable to adjust to your writing style, as my rhetoric was shaped mainly in the USENET days, and there were entire FAQs then on miscommunication, tone and sarcasm. We had just gotten NCSA Mosaic at that point.
For Mary and Eleanor, the cliché would be that they would have a mutual respect that evolved into liking, and by next season they’d be sharing girls secrets and hard liquor. What I like is how they’ve stayed in the hate phase thus far and, as Dorv mentioned, reveling in it. And their repartee is often the LOL of the episode for me.
“stayed… reveled in it.”
Sorry for the error. Verb tense disagreement bugs the hell out of me, and I should have proof-read this column of text again before posting it. I miss that time-limited editing function we used to have.
*POST AUTHOR*
Do I tend to unmitigatingly rant? ;-)
I think Mary and Rafe are still together because Mary’s a user, and Rafe’s insecure. If I’m right, that’s a pretty unhealthy relationship, for both of them.
I don’t think they need to share everything, but I think you might be minimizing the significance of Rafe’s retirement decision. Not all couples need to share every aspect of their lives (although, admittedly, I don’t understand how that makes any sense, when you decide to share your LIFE with someone when you commit), but baseball is every single thing to him. I don’t know you, so I can’t compare it to anything in your life, but it’s like, let’s say you decided to get rid of your lungs, a decision you contemplated for nine months. Would you have not included your spouse in that decision? Honestly?
Interesting. I see what you’re saying about why Mary “would” be a “Romantic”, whereas I see those very things as reasons why she wouldn’t be. I’ve seen her inability not to be rid of her family as a weakness, and her experience with her father as what would have kept her from ever considering being tied down by a man. Guess not.
I don’t argue your “declarative” point, but isn’t that the standard method of writing? Clearly I have to believe what I’m saying, and so I’d write it in a position of strength, instead of saying something more wishy-washy. To me, that just makes more sense.
It’s funny you’d say I dislike the shows I’m watching; I think, instead, it’s a tendency to be critical of shows that I really like, because I want the whole hour (or half-hour) to be the kind of good “I” want it to be. I really liked In Plain Sight last year, and so what bothers me this year is that it’s not living up to last season. And I include in my posts the things I think need work. I know no one from the show will ever read it, but I might as well use the platform I have.
Actually, I think the retirement would really affect Mary: she’s accustomed to Rafe being away regularly. Can she handle a boyfriend/fiancé/husband who’s around 365?
I guess the presumption depends on the person. I’ve seen US Marshals (is that the movie?), but the first thing I think is WITSEC. They could atually identify themselves as law enforcement personell, and not many people inspect badges when they’re flashed, but that’s not really the point; it goes back to the perception thing. If the person is like you, they figure the Marshal’s hunting a fugitive, so what does it matter. If they’re like me, I wonder, who do I know that’s in witness protection. In that case, it would be very detrimental to the agent to have identified themselves as a Marshal. But I guess there’s not much to be done about that.
You don’t think it matters that Jesus was prepared to renege on the entire deal he had arranged? Sometimes, its not just about what actually transpired … here’s a guy the Marshals will have to worry about for the rest of his life. Leaving that alone could seriously come back to bite everybody in the butt.
I’d hope Mary, et al, aren’t judged on a relative scale. If you botched 15 surgeries per month, while your peers each botched 175, should you not be called to task for your 15?
“Captain Kirk … he’s the only captain out of thirteen to bring his Constitution-class back to Earth”
Strange title for a law-school professor. What were they doing not on Earth?
This witness is far from “friendly.” He may be a cooperating witness, but there’s a scale on that too, from begrudging to willing. You wouldn’t treat them all the same, no matter what he’s giving you, and you definitely shouldn’t use the kid-gloves on a known criminal.
I think that, while getting the big fish is the goal, jailing a criminal like Jesus isn’t small potatoes. Calderon could be gotten to another day; Jesus was screwing them today. I know that this ends up coming down to the politics, but stripping the issue bare, Jesus is no innocent guy.
I have no problem with your differing interpretation. It just rubbed very wrong, especially given the fact that the episode was basically book-ended with the weight comment, and the engagement.
Again, it’s virtually impossible to write about your opinion without taking a firm position on something. I think I’m more careful to qualify said opinion when it’s of something significant, that might affect other people, but when we’re discussing, or debating, a TV show, I think it’s fair to firmly root myself in my own accuracy when stating something. While it may seem counter-intuitive, I don’t believe that that minimizes the validity of someone else’s opinion, it just says that I believe my view to be correct. I don’t think it’s dismissive, and I certainly don’t mean for it to be dismissive, just assertive. I think tone is also a tough one with the new methods we have for communication today. I don’t know.
I see the cliché of Eleanor and Mary being that Mary’s a women-hater, and that women hate her. You could just smell that on her from the beginning, so it actually would have been more unexpected, for me, to see them get along.
By the way, numerous people have asked about the edit function; I think it conflicts with some other plug-ins, or something like that. I need it plenty, believe me ;)
You’re just one of those reviewers that mentions what they didn’t like about the subject much more than what they did like. That can come up as ranting, but then there are those readers that enjoy that sort of thing.
The only time I thought it turned into a hatchet job was In Plain Sight tries and fails, where you just piled on the gripes and cheap shots until I felt you were really grasping for the most trivial things to attack by the end. You didn’t bother to mention anything positive about the show, and since I disagreed with almost all of your remarks, I decided not to contribute to the discussion.
You may be right about Rafe and Mary being unhealthy, but they’ve decided to stay together and try to make it work. We might think that kind of relationship might fall apart five years down the line, but sometimes it doesn’t, and hopefully we’ll be along for the ride. I think Rafe flows like water, and Mary probably wouldn’t last long with any other type of man. On the other hand, Rafe is so easy-going that I think he’d have no problem getting along with just about any woman. He just seems to like how challenging and passionate Mary is. Some men say the crazy ones are the hottest. :-)
It’s not that I think the baseball thing is improbable, and it’s not what you or I would have done that matters, but what we see (differently) on the show. You think it doesn’t work for Rafe and Mary and that’s completely fair. I just think of those couples where the husband works twenty years at a dead-end job and then just comes home one day and tells his wife he quit, and they figure things out from there. Sometimes that sort of thing does happen, and Mary and Rafe seem to me to have the opposite of a co-dependent relationship. They also don’t have children and a joint mortgage hanging over them (at least Mary seems to afford her house quite well with no contribution from Jinx and Brandi), so things are much less complicated for them to sort out together. And like I said, Mary and Rafe always knew this would happen young; Mary just didn’t know when it would be.
Yes, we’ll just have to disagree about the Romantic thing. I think a weaker person would have turned out exactly as you described, but Mary has strived to be a better Alpha than her father was, which is why she’s embraced these values and traditions. She refuses to abandon her family, as completely justifiable as that would be, and does want Marriage, but only in the great, grand forever kind of way. She wants to find a man that will be in all the way until death. Of course, her father issues have made that almost impossible for her to gain for herself all these years.
As I stated in my post above, there’s no problem in stating your opinions and conclusions strongly. I just feel that often you’re scornful of alternative interpretations in your writing, and it comes across as dismissive and arrogant. But then, that’s always been the problem with online boards; I sound nothing like this in real life.
In that case, I think you might actually like In Plain Sight better than me. I often have trouble enjoying it as much as other shows because I wish the writing was just slightly stronger, but am riveted by the performances every time, especially McCormack and Weller. I also enjoy just about any show with this sort of black humor.
My issue with your list of improvements is not only that I disagree with many of them, but that I think the showrunners have made a conscious decision to move in a certain direction (which I happen to enjoy more) and that hoping they’ll reverse themselves back to the first season is fruitless.
Retirement may affect Mary more than she thinks, but is Rafe living in her house full-time yet? I thought he still had his own place. They could mine the close proximity for more storylines, but I think that they’ll adjust rather than breaking up. And how much time Rafe spends with her will depend on what his next career will be (hopefully teaching or coaching: he’s always cute with kids).
I’m not just talking about Tommy Lee Jones, but any fugitive/bounty hunting movie or television episode from the 1970’s and 80’s. I’ve seen that five-pointed star in a circle badge too many times to count, and the Marshal in those, male or female, was almost always some kind of tough, modern-day cowboy. So, yes, witness protection is a new thing to me–I had always thought it was a special division of the FBI.
Probably a lot of WITSEC inspectors wish they could operate carte blanche, but domestically we thankfully still have many laws that restrict what they can and can not do. It may lead to problems like you describe, but it’s better than the alternative.
Of course what Jesus did matters on a technical level. What I’m saying is that the win was so big that nobody cared about it afterward. If they had lost, certainly the hammer would have fallen hard on Jesus, Mary, Marshall and the U.S. Attorney, but in television, as in real life, sometimes all people care about are results. Plus I think in witness protection specifically, sometimes you have to play it by the seat of your pants in dealing with these people.
That’s a inapplicable comparison. By using “botch” pejoratively, you’re implying that the Marshal Service would already know Mary screwed something up so that an investigation would be warranted. That’s a clear decision in a surgery, where nothing goes wrong in a normal surgery and if it does is probably attributable to a surgeon, but it’s not a judgment you can make in witness protection where, at least as depicted on this show, witnesses often act up without their Marshal being involved at all. These things must happen for all Marshals, so I don’t see the Service investigating Mary unless she’s too far above the average. I’d argue that “botch” doesn’t even apply in this case, as Mary is usually able to bring the incident to a satisfactory conclusion, and the Service would be most concerned with the end result. If most of her cases ended up with her witnesses dead or bounced, then I’d agree with you.
Sorry, I can’t tell if you’re kidding or not. Just in case, Captain Kirk, like Mr. Spock, is a Star Trek reference. Their starship, the Enterprise is a Constitution-class vessel, like the Red October is a Typhoon-class.
I don’t watch a lot of courtroom dramas so I may not be using the correct terms. But regardless of whether we call him friendly or cooperating, Jesus was the prosecution’s witness and the USA had built his entire case around him. If he was not confused or cowed as the USA tried to convince the judge, but actually defiant, than trying to coerce him would have made it clear that the state’s entire case had collapsed, and the judge would have been right to dismiss the case.
Again, I agree. Jesus would have been severely punished if they had not been able to change his mind. But saying that Calderon could be gotten to another day is ridiculously short-sighted, as he’s the head of a criminal empire in Miami. Every day you wait for another witness to drop into your lap (and he’ll be intimidating or killing many potentials in the mean time), he does that much more damage to your entire city. Actually, Jesus really is small potatoes on his own.
Again, I thought the weight jibe was cute either on its own or with the engagement.
With Mary and Eleanor, again we have wildly different interpretations of the show. From the beginning, I’ve always seen Mary as being a huge misanthrope rather than a misogynist. If anyone even close to type-A of either sex gets within spitting distance of Mary, they instantly hate each other. And Mary initially distrusts all strangers that intrude into her world, especially work-related, whether it be a psychologist, an APD Detective, an FBI Agent, or a new administrator.
It reminds me of those arguments NCIS fans have that they kill off all the recurring female agents. I’d point out that they kill off all the recurring male ones too: they just introduce more female agents than male ones.
And what was Eleanor thinking when she totally rearranged a veteran inspector’s workspace (did she change the filing system as well?) her first day on a new job? Did she think that would go over well with any U.S. Marshal, even one more reasonable than Mary?
Aryeh, I think we need to find a show covered by one of those lazy reviewers that barely writes anything, and have these extremely long, point-by-point discussions there. ;-) And I’m going to watch episodes 2 & 3 of Make It or Break It off the DVR tonight.
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I guess it’s just a stylistic thing. My Weeds stuff is pretty non-negative, if you’re into it.
It’s interesting that you mention the post, “In Plain Sight tries and fails”, because I was really annoyed at how the writers scuttled that entire Brandi plot. This had built and built for the entire first season, from the moment she arrived in New Mexico, and it was just done like that, poof, almost as if they realized, “oh, crap, we should really close the loop on that one.” Let’s not get into a debate about it here, but there was major frustration behind that piece.
There’s an argument to be made for every type of relationship out there. My struggle is that Mary and Rafe’s doesn’t feel authentic, or viable, to me. We’re not talking about an abusive relationship, where you say, “he’s hitting her; why does she stay with him?” I’m just saying, I don’t see how they have the pieces necessary to have ever been together in the first place.
I agree with you on your example of the impromptu decision. Were this one of them, then it wouldn’t matter as much that Rafe made the decision without including Mary. But a nine-month contemplation?
I wonder if it’s a question of strength, when you’re trying to avoid the pain that’s befallen you in life already. I would have thought she just didn’t ever want to be in a position where someone could do to her what her father did to Jinx, but you could be right; she could be striving to be better. I just had never seen that as a part of her before, so could never have imagined that she’s be interested in marriage. I think she’ll break the engagement, but, ultimately, you could still be right.
I doubt that I’d be able to adjust how I write, because the belief in my own interpretation is integral, but I can tell you that I’m definitely not dismissive, scornful, or other, of others’ opinions. I might think you’re wrong (:-)), but I enjoy the discussion.
Oh, I know asking for the show to change directions is fruitless, but, what’re you going to do? I like writing about the show, and I’m certainly not going to just paint it in roses, if I don’t see it like that, so all I’ve got is constructive criticism, if you want to call it that. I’m enjoying it!
I just wonder if Mary’s ready for a significant other who’s around like normal people. No built in breaks, or whatever.
The entire witness/US Attorney/Marshal’s office, could be 100% accurate, but then maybe it’s the way the system works in real life that bothers me. Giving a criminal a total pass because they’ll roll over on their boss, or whoever? Doesn’t their lack of loyalty and honesty in that instance forebode trouble to come? Therefore, I feel like any indiscretion deserves the hammer.
And, so, maybe my gripe is more with the witnesses, who act out, but who to judge, if not their keepers? It’s expected that a degenerate pot-grower would try and get high whenever he could (weeks back); when he did, shouldn’t someone be called to task for not anticipating it? It seems like all you need to be sure of before leading a life of crime, is that you know enough about someone bigger than you, in case you get caught. Isn’t that a bad lesson to be teaching?
yes, I know who Captain Kirk is, sorry for giving you a hard time. Just, science fiction is very much not my thing, so I was playing the naïve fellow. In truth, though, I didn’t know what “Constitution” was, but I assumed it was a ship. Sorry for being a pain. ;-)
I realize they wouldn’t roll those dice, but I imagine the government was in a much better position to monitor Calderon after Jesus’ testimony, pre-trial. If he wouldn’t play, let him fry, and watch Calderon like a hawk. I know none of that would ever happen, but like I said above, I have little patience for the “Jesuses” of the world.
Doesn’t Mary being a misanthrope jibe well with what I’m saying? It’s expected for them to hate each other, whereas you were saying above, “the cliché would be that they would have a mutual respect that evolved into liking, and by next season they’d be sharing girls secrets and hard liquor.”
I love your idea! I would definitely bombard some other poor sap with this stuff. I’m going do a little research, and get some ideas for us on writers who’d be frightened by it!
To your point below, I would hope that I at least don’t come across as “uninformed.” Blustery, I can take, but not uninformed. :-)
To avoid repetition, please know that if I do not reply to a specific one of your points below that I respect your viewpoint but believe that I have articulated my own opinion sufficiently and don’t want to go over old ground again.
I suppose it’s a question of would be it more painful for you if they dragged out Brandi’s storyline for half a season to lay it to rest organically or just tie it off with a neat bow in one episode, perhaps even thinking like you do that it’s not working? I’m not sure which is better.
Actually, I didn’t mean to portray that as an impromptu decision, but one twenty years in the making. The husband had been considering this for a long time, but never told his wife his thoughts until after he had already quit.
You could say that Rafe contemplated his life over those nine months. My sense from the scene instead was when he said he gave himself six months, then three more to see how it went, he didn’t dwell on it, but put it out of his mind while playing ball until those specific two days, then made his decision each time: to extend his deadline, and then to retire.
“I just wonder if Mary’s ready for a significant other who’s around like normal people. No built in breaks, or whatever.”
You’re probably dead-on that it’ll be a shock to her. I just think their situation will be mined more for comedy than for friction and conflict.
Certainly the criminal turning state’s evidence is not an ideal solution all around, but I’m hard pressed to think of a better one. And since they’ll only need his testimony until the appeals process is exhausted, the government’s free to be as strict as you suggest afterward, even ejecting the witness from the program if need be.
Teaching a lesson is a bit of a balancing act. If the witness remains sequestered and the court records sealed, then no potential criminal witnesses will ever find out what happened. On the other hand, if the trial is public enough to serve as an example, your witness is free afterward to write all the bestsellers he wants (or submit press releases through his personal attorney) about how the government dropped the hammer on him for some “minor” indiscretions even though he testified. That would make other witnesses think twice about entering the program if they think their deal could be snatched away capriciously. After all, the government can always find something on you.
Again, that’s a lot of resources spent on Calderon’s organization that could be used on other criminals, and that might be saved just by cutting Jesus a free pass, so I think the U.S. Attorney was right to give the line a little more slack.
My only point with the misanthrope term is that I feel Mary has a problem with people, not just women. Sort of like how Harry Callahan isn’t really racist, he just hates all colors. And in movies and television, the tough ones always share this warm gooey center that enables them, as they’re so similar, to become the bestest of friends, so I appreciate that thus far this has not happened for Mary and Eleanor.
Sorry, “uninformed” was a general, not pointed comment. You’ve always had a fairly cogent grasp of the characters and plots, it’s just your preferences that have left something to be desired. ;-)
To experience “uniformed,” just take a tour through the Weblogs comments these days. It’s so utterly disheartening that I can no longer muster the fortitude and masochism to proffer an argument there, and I used to be fairly active. On the other hand, TWoP can be very intelligent but also quite nasty, politically colored and overwhelmingly prolific. I much prefer the level of discussion to be found on CliqueClack.
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It’s a moot point now, but it may have been interesting for Brandi’s case to drag out, because Mary, and her career, would have been dragged through it. They can continue the house-repair thing, but not the drug/murder case? We’ll never know what could have been, but I can imagine enjoying it.
I see your point about the retirement. I can’t grasp it, because I can’t imagine doing something like that, but I get you. I do sometimes mull things on my own, before including my wife, but she’s always part of the decision-making process, when it’s of any significance. Like you said, though, different strokes….
I think your thoughts on teaching a lesson turns on the usage of the word “capriciously.” I think therein lies our argument; to me, this is well-founded, not capricious. Either way, it’d be nice to see them do it once on the show, and show the shockwaves, even for the sake of a good story.
“…it’s just your preferences that have left something to be desired. ;-)”
You know it!
It could totally be a well-founded punishment on the government’s part, but would still leave the impression on potential witnesses that it was capricious, as they would always look at things from the subject witness’s point of view. Hence my point about the criminal writing his tell-all from jail, or at least through his lawyer. The government would just have to weigh the potential costs and benefits of complete stricture and adherence to the rules.
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What can I say; I’m a stickler. :)
I’m with Ryan. I love the way Mary and Eleanor’s relationship is evolving. They still don’t like each other, but they seem to have FUN not liking each other.
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It feels like a stereotype, like based on the fact that Mary’s like this, and Eleanor’s like that, they must do battle. I’m not saying that’s not true, but it doesn’t feel natural to me.
I forgot to mention that one of the reasons I defend In Plain Sight so stridently is that criticism that I find to be undeserved or uninformed of just about anything sticks in my craw. Someone can dislike or consider stupid something all they like as long as they’re doing it for the right reasons (i.e., it’s their rational opinion, not merely because they missed or misunderstood something). It’s a bad habit, I know. Heck, I’ve defended Dollhouse against attacks I thought were unfair, and I f***ing hate that show.